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Thread: SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY

Created on: 05/25/03 01:05 PM

Replies: 16

Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/25/03 1:05 PM

I just got turned down for a waiver request on a over payment for SSDI.
They said " based on the facts we have now, we cannot approve your request. However you have a right to meet with us before we decide if you have to pay back the overpayment.This mting is called a personal conference"

I was over paid as I worked over the trail peroid which misundersttood.
It appears that they will not give me a waiver. I cannot afford to pay 100 dollars a month. We are a family of 4 living on 920.00 disability.
Our expenses exceed our income. Frankly we can't pay any amount per month. Doe's anyone know if I would be able to file for Bankruptcy on the over payment. The overpayment is about 19,000.00.
Doe'sanyone have experience on this. I alreay told my story when I filed the waiver and met with someone. I considered this a personal conference. Now they are setting me up for a personal conference.
Before the personal conference they are allowing me to reviw my file. I can't afford a lawyer, nor am I able to find one who will represent me pro bono or a lessor fee. I really need some advice and guidance on this. Im suppose to review the file on May 30, 03 and Im scheduled for personal conferance on June 10, 03.
I'd appreciate any feed back.

Bruce

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caryn


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Joined: 05/21/02

Posts: 3,798

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/26/03 9:31 PM

Bruce-

Please call the SSA and inquire as to legal aid. Your local BAr Assn may be able to help you, your clergyman may have a slush fund, your local social services may be able to help, and so may your Congressman.

Good luck,

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dave61599


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Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/27/03 5:25 AM

I have a few questians;
About how long you have been reciving SSDI?
How old are you?
How old are your children?
How much per month did you make during your trial work period?
When did your trial work period end?
How much were you making before you became disabled by SS rules?

When you look at your files look at the income that SS claims you have made and compair it with what your records show you have made. Also look for other thing in the records that you feel has been put in there as a rusult of misundersanding of the facts as you understand them.
Are there W2 records in the report that you feel are wrong?

Dave

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malayna


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Joined: 05/23/03

Posts: 3

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/27/03 2:42 PM

You may be able to convince them to give you the waiver still, by going through the process; however, the debt will not likely be discharged in bankruptcy. It is considered a federal debt and just like any back-taxes owed, is difficult to get discharged. I would consult an experienced bankruptcy attorney before considering this option. Since the debt is not likely dischargeable, bankruptcy may do more damage than good.

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Busterdad2003


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Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/27/03 9:44 PM

I am 44 years old , My kids are 2,11,and 16. I have been disabled since 1990. I worked for about 18 months or less.

There is no way I can afford to pay 100 dollars a month back. I'm suppose to be on med. Can't afford them. We go to the food cupboard weekly.
We don't waste money.

I know they pretty much can take what they want. The evidence is very clear that my basic daily living expenses exceed my income.

They will not accept less than 100.00 on ovr payment. they have been holding my daughters check for one year. Which is when I got done working and reapplied. They have applied it all to back pay. They than tried to stopmy SSDI checks taking the whole amount. I filed the waiver and it stopped them from taking mine til we resolve the issue. They still are holding my daughters. How can I get them to take a lessor amount.
Whats in that file they they are allowing me to view in a few days.

Bruce

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dave61599


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Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/27/03 11:42 PM

The when you worked for 18 months is now the important thing. The amount you can now work without losing you benefits is now much grater. It wasn't that long ago that $200.00 was considered substantial income from working. Now you can as of 2003 make up to $800.00 a month with out losing you income from SSDI.

SSDI information and answers to questions.

Do a search of the SS website to find out what the law is and was It may help you in knowing what to look for in you file that may be wrong or in finding a way to come to a workable agreement on the back pay.
Dave

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Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/30/03 3:54 PM

Hi < I just returned from reviewing my SS chart. The probelm seems to be that they are saying I had trail work peroid in 1994. In 1994 i attempted to start a business. I lasted 3 or 4 months and didn't make any money. It ended up all expenses. I incurred debt. I reported it to SSDI They told me not to worry about it because I made no earnings.
Whn i reviewed my file today they has earnings 444.00 a month for nine months and it said nd of trail work peroid. I never reported during that time cause i didnt make earnings. thy never send me notice or anything. So un be known to me when i tried work again in 2000 from my very first paycheck I was suppose to give back my SSDI check. I thought I was beginning trial work peroid. So now they say I owe a ton of money.
I did not know I was not entitled to trail work peroid.

I just read some where that you get new work trail peroid after 5 years I gues those rules must not have been in effect at that time. doe's anyone have any ideas how I should pursue this now. again I can't afford lawyer.
i have personal conferance scheduled next week. what should i do.

Bruce

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gasguy


Member


Joined: 02/16/03

Posts: 446

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/30/03 5:08 PM

You can't afford a lawyer, but a lawyer is what you need. Go back to Caryn's response- is there anywhere that you can find legal help? Have you checked legal aid or similar avenues in your area? Can your state bar association help?

Sorry to repeat all your ideas, Caryn...

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dave61599


Veteran Member


Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/30/03 5:36 PM

If you can find your old tax records then you have a real good chance of showing that you didn't really have that income You now know where they coming up with the numbers. Trial work weeks drop off that are over 60 months old If you can prove that just one of the months would not be counted as a trial work month then the rest all go away be cause of the time period. You find that you disagree with what is in the records and anything that shows other wise gives you a good chance of resolving the problem. I have always found my SS office to be very helpful. You can ask for an earnings record of what was turned in on your SS number. It seams unusual that each menthe should have a figure of $444.00 this may be a figure from one or two months and then averaged out over 12 months. At that time 40 hours a month was considered substantial time in your own business and resulted in trial work month. Any records or any one that you still know that knew what you were doing in 1994 could be helpful. Someone not in your family would probably help the most.
Dave

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Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
05/31/03 10:55 PM

Thanks Dave, It has been 8 years since when they say I has Trail work peroid. It seems moot to debate with them about earning in 1994. I tried to start a business that lasted 3 or 4 months. My girlfriend at the time loaned me 10,000 and The businss was financd to me. She in fact supported me as my monthly SSDI went in to the business. the business didn't go because I was totaaly dependent upon others. Being Deaf I needed to have hearing people do all the work. I didn't know anything about hair salons. i thought i could make it go by delegating everything. Businees flopped.

I ended up very deep in the red. I did not call that gainful employment and never took a dime. It was a short venture.

I did file taxes. That what must have happened SSDI must have done some kind of average. i lookd in the file I did not see earnings statements

or anything from the IRS. Which is different from when I did work and get paid in 2000 and 2001 I saw recors and amount and there were ni initials

TWP Trail work peroid. The record in 94 which had earnings of 444 a month for 9 month and then a line draw through the rst of the year. Had initials TWP after the first 9 months. Im betting they made a mistake and are counting thatas trail work peroid and not giving me credit for TWP in 2000 and 2001. Which I believe I was intitled to.

I don't ahve 1994 taxes records? Does that matter since that was 9 years ago? Was I entitld to another work peroid after 5 years?

If I had no earnings and all expenss for 1994 could that still be considered trial work peroid. you said if i worked 40 hours a month in self employment they considered that gainful employemt.

I guess the big most important question is. the 9 years and was I eligible for another trail work peroid.

i want to pick the right approach here. I rather the facts spak for themslves rather then debate. i do realize that SSDI assumes everyone is guilty that the burden of proof is on me. that question is a factual question. if the answer is that I was allowed another TWP after 5 years that 1994 is irrelevant with the exception taht they are using it as trail work peroid. Am i on track here?

I f thats the case than I was over paid 4 months and I did have work related expenses due to accommendations. Although I don't have proof of that. i still would be asking for a waiver on 3 or 4 thousand dollars rather than 19,000> Id appreciate anyone thoughts and insights on this.
Thanks for the assistance so far. this is a great help. Support from people I don't know. Its helping me keep sane and focussed.
Bruce

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dave61599


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Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/01/03 7:40 AM

According to what I read yesterday their is only one trial work period. When that is over Then You have a higher amount you can make. At the time the earnings amount threshold was $200.00 a month. Anything that can put help show that you did not have a completed trial work period at that time is what you need to bee looking at. Get a (summary FICA earnings) record from SS showing what your reported earnings were. If you can convince them that even the first or the last or any middle month had earnings under $200.00 then you did not have a completed trial work period and the months all over 60 months old so they have all dropped off, If you had a completed trial work period then you don't have another one coming.
Trial Work Period

If you receive SSDI (Title II) benefits, you are entitled to a Trial Work Period (TWP) which allows you to test your work skills while continuing to receive your full cash benefit. There is no limit to the amount of money you may earn during the TWP and still get your cash benefit.
The TWP begins the first month you earn $560 or more and continues until you have earned $560 or more for 9 months. (The TWP threshold amount of $560 is for calendar year 2002. It will be $570 in 2003. The amount may increase in subsequent years). These 9 months do not have to be consecutive, but they must occur within a 60-month period (that is, within the 59 months prior to the 9th TWP month). You are allowed only one TWP within any one period of disability.
Once you have completed your TWP you begin your 36-month Extended Period of Eligibility (EPE). If your earnings exceed the Substantial Gainful Activity (SGA) level, you also begin your 3-month Grace Period.
You should be aware of the fact that after your Grace Period your SSDI cash benefit will stop for any month in which your earnings exceed the SGA level.
For other years, see the TWP thresholds in the table below:
Effective Date

Monthly



2001 or earlier

$200



January 2002

560



January 2003

570



The above came from the above website by


<


The above site is clearer than The SS site in explaining many of the programs and problems With attempting to return to work when on disability. It also covers other disability benefit programs.

Dave

Go to the online help/information link on the page.
see if it works now.

Work World

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Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/02/03 8:08 PM

Thanks Dave for the information. Not so good news for me.

I didn't know about TWP in 1994 and it wasn't one, for reasons I stated before. To refuse me a waivr I must know that I was being over paid
and I must proved that I can not pay iy back. the truth is that I didn't know. Geez I hope I find a lawyer..

I'll keep you posted.

Bruce

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dave61599


Veteran Member


Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/03/03 6:48 AM

The best thing is to get them to agree that the time you tried to start a business in 1994 was in fact a failed attempt on the trial work period. This would then make it so you still have a trial work period available because Any months that might have been a trial work month has long dropped away. If in you personal interview they determine that the period in 1994 in fact was not a completed TRW then you no longer need a waiver all of what was withheld is also due to come back to you. Your first line of defense is to get the time you tried to start a business in 1994 listed as an uncompleted trial work period and the need for the waiver goes away, and it may be easier to get the trial work period listed as uncompleted than it is to get the waiver.
Dave

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Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/05/03 7:00 PM

Hi

Looks like I'm on my own on this over payment case. I couldn't find lawyer to represent me.

Anyone got any suggestions on how I should prepare for my personal confrence.

What happens if I lose here Whats next ?

Thanks for the help so far Dave

Bruce

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dave61599


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Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/05/03 9:21 PM

Were you able to find out any information on the WorkWorld link? The best thing in preparing is knowing what the law is and what options the person has that does your personal review. Write out how you remember your attempt to start a business remembering at that time any month that you made over $200.00 it would be considered a trial work month. If you have it in writing then you won't forget important information. You also need the list of earnings that I mentioned from SS as that could go a long ways along with you explanation that 1994 did not consist of a completed TWP. Additional statements from anyone that knew you in 1994 could help. If I understood you right then having someone with you at your conference could help. When you cannot hear then it might be easy for things to be misunderstood. Another reason for you to have things in writing as you can have it explained to you why they consider what you are trying to present is considered to be wrong. For example if you had a lease on your building for less than 8 months and you had no other income months over $200.00 within 60 months of that time it sure would be hard to show that you were able to earn money from a hairdressing business while you had no place for customers to come.
Dave

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Busterdad2003


New Member


Joined: 05/25/03

Posts: 7

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/09/03 4:27 PM

Hi
Just an update on my xase with SSDI and overpayment. I have contacted a few lawyer. Although none of them will represnt me in my cas ( not enough profit for them I guess) They did say that I could file bankruptcy on the overpayment as long as I didn't do anything farudalent.
I have considerable debt related to disability and was considering such.
However I still intend to go to conference tommorrow to try to prove my case.
I would still need to do appeal process if I lose at conference, because I don't have money to file Bankruptcy and I can't afford to have my checks stopped or pay back 100.00 per month. I don't like being accused and assume guilty oversomething I did not do. I appreciate all the feedback and will lt you all know how it went at the PC. Dave i tried workworld but I couldn't get it. Did they move it.

Thanks

bruce

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dave61599


Veteran Member


Joined: 07/28/02

Posts: 2,170

SSDI OVER PAYMENT & BANKRUPTCY
06/09/03 6:00 PM

I changed the link so it did not take you as far into the program. The link came up when I first posted it but that may be because I had the site minimized while I was working on the post so I have changed the link.
I hope the site helps you understand whats going on better. And that they can see where there it is likely a error that the formeer time was listed as a trial work period.
Dave

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